Curse

twicky_kid · Apr 28, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordfisher

Blackout is a skill, not a spell- thank your stars. Otherwise, we'd never even play the game, just take turns blacking each other out while warriors auto-attack dps us to death.

Was watching a GvG match and one of the teams mes was in the chat. I asked him if MoR was recharging his blackout. He responded yes.

Might be a bug.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Apr 29, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

This is truly interesting...I will check and post later today.

Effigy · Apr 30, 2006, 09:22 PM // 21:22

One possible defense against MoR/Diversion spam on a monk would be to bring Holy Veil and just leave it on yourself so Diversion takes twice as long to cast. If the monk casts it before the fight starts, it would be ready to recast if the mesmer drains it right away too. Double cast time on Diversion would suck, even with high FC...

calamitykell · Apr 30, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Exactly. Or maybe get your team's mesmer to divert their MoR or diversion, hmm?

twicky_kid · May 01, 2006, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

One possible defense against MoR/Diversion spam on a monk would be to bring Holy Veil and just leave it on yourself so Diversion takes twice as long to cast.

Running a Monk with 2 pips of energy all the time is probly not a good time. You are hurting yourself more than hurting. Lets not forget can be removed just as well. Also cost you even more energy and time after a cop.

twicky_kid · May 01, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

One possible defense against MoR/Diversion spam on a monk would be to bring Holy Veil and just leave it on yourself so Diversion takes twice as long to cast.

Running a Monk with 2 pips of energy all the time is probly not a good time. You are hurting yourself more than hurting. Lets not forget can be removed just as well. Also cost you even more energy and time after a cop.

Diverting the other teams diversion mes does seem to work well though. Had to use that tactic myself.

TheLordOfBlah · May 01, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Sb Ftw

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 01, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

2nd that; but lets remember a few things...
Even if you lock down the entire monk...
this is still a 1-1 trade

All of this assumes you can keep the energy to do so, and he will get a few spells off (8 actually assuming diversion hits every time) so it is less than a 1-1.

All of this to come out even? Not really worth it.

twicky_kid · May 01, 2006, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Either the monk waits for the diversion to wear off (isn't healing) or gets the skill disabled for 1 minute+. That's not a win win situation for a monk. If it gets removed fine that's time the monk wasn't doing anything and energy they had to spend.

The bottom line here is the mesmer is doing his job. He is hindering the defense as much as possible. E denial was popular because it could shut down an offense or monk. Diversion does the same but without the nasty recharge of E denial.

Just got to watch out for those rangers

Dragannia · May 01, 2006, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

2nd that; but lets remember a few things...
Even if you lock down the entire monk...
this is still a 1-1 trade

All of this assumes you can keep the energy to do so, and he will get a few spells off (8 actually assuming diversion hits every time) so it is less than a 1-1.

All of this to come out even? Not really worth it.

If you disable enough of the Monk's key skills (Hell, a simple Reversal and Word will do), you can move onto another target.

Effigy · May 01, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Running a Monk with 2 pips of energy all the time is probly not a good time. You are hurting yourself more than hurting. Lets not forget can be removed just as well. Also cost you even more energy and time after a cop.

You'd only have 2 pips if you were a boon-prot. All other monks would have 3 pips.

Besides that, I'd rather lose an extra energy pip than have Diversion on me 100% of the time. Many monks bring Holy Veil anyway, but it would be especially useful in a situation like this since it could potentially cut the shutdown from Diversion to 50%, even with MoR.

As far as Holy Veil being removed, if you cast it before the fight starts it'll be ready to recast right away the first time it gets stripped. And let's not forget that HV has roughly half the recharge of the mesmer enchantment removals. Unless the mesmer brings several removals or several of his teammates focus on stripping HV from one opposing monk, you could reasonably expect to have HV up half the time at least.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 01, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Either the monk waits for the diversion to wear off (isn't healing) or gets the skill disabled for 1 minute+. That's not a win win situation for a monk. If it gets removed fine that's time the monk wasn't doing anything and energy they had to spend.

The bottom line here is the mesmer is doing his job. He is hindering the defense as much as possible. E denial was popular because it could shut down an offense or monk. Diversion does the same but without the nasty recharge of E denial.

Just got to watch out for those rangers

Fine; you win the point there.
However if the monk never casts anything while under diversion, then you are still burning up energy reserves for a 6 second shutdown. Energy denial did the same thing but caused damage to the monk at the same time; whilist promising a shutdown (the monk could cast holy veil on himself to heal for 100+ while it isn't a rof, then remove it to counter your next diversion). Anyway; this requires an elite, doesn't do damage, can be negated by teammates, while e denial does damage, doesn't "need" an elite and is more reliable.

Beat_Go_Stick · May 01, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

2nd that; but lets remember a few things...
Even if you lock down the entire monk...
this is still a 1-1 trade

All of this assumes you can keep the energy to do so, and he will get a few spells off (8 actually assuming diversion hits every time) so it is less than a 1-1.

All of this to come out even? Not really worth it.

Personally (and I doubt I'm alone here), I wouldn't only use this on a single target. The fact of the matter is someone on the enemy team would have Diversion on them AT ALL TIMES!

Throw it on a Monk, throw it on the other Monk, back to the first, over to the Necro, etc. Add to that we are analyzing ONE skill. E-Tap, Backfire, Shame, etc....all become 100% maintainable (or close enough to it) sans interruption. Energy theivery every 10 seconds, consistant denial, fast casted doom in a myriad of forms. Buffing this stance has made it freakin' awesome. Fact of the matter is (imho), A.Net has lost their mind.

twicky_kid · May 02, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Energy cost is not outragous as some people make it. Under MoR you have a 5 second recharge diversion. You spend 10 energy then 5 seconds later you would have gained 6 back. Making your net cost 4 energy.

Beat Go Stick just hit the nail on the head. I just pointed out 1 skill. Mantra works for all the skills on your bar.

If you want to compare this to E denial we can do that. E denial got a 6 energy drop from the trinity (surge, burn, sig). It did use up your elite so I don't know why you said that E denial didn't but anyways.

Surge 20 re, Burn 20 re, Sig 30 re. You spend 20 energy to deny them 24. After 20 seconds of recharge from Natural boon prot regen you would have gained 20 energy back. That means you only really drained 4 energy. If its a target with 4 pips of regen they would gain more than you drained. E denial does get a spike type of shutdown. As time goes on it loses its effectiveness. The biggest plus about the trinity is the dmg and aoe. Combined with mind wrack you could hit 100-150 easy. Monks with -energy weapons and switchs could battle the e denial easily.

There is not much you can do vs diversion spam without outside help. I never gave much thought to backfire but since you mention it that 10 duration and 15 second recharge is looking mighty sweet. Let me give you a little taste. This is my current bar I'm running with my guild. We are running a mass degen build so the heal party spammers are always going and monks have to heal constantly.

E burn
Diversion
Shame
Remove Hex
Drain enchant
Shatter enchantment
Mantra Of Recovery
Ressurect

I can still spike with burn>shatter. If you wanted to you could substitute for pp>shatter delusions. Remove hex will have a 4 second recharge which is very nice to relieve others of hex removal opening up more slots on other players bars. Diversion to give a constant shutdown. Shame for when we spike to interrupt the monks. Drain enchant for energy. I like this better than E denial because of the versitility it gives my mesmer. Rather than unload E denial to do some dmg and hit some energy then wait around another 20 seconds to do dmg again.

I think backfire might acually see play in pvp now. Good call beat stick thanx for the ideas. I would like to see more ways to abuse this change.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 03, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

I tested this yesterday with a fellow guild member; and it simply was not worth the effort while one could use shatter enchantment/drain enchantment, drains taps and burns are actually more effective then using a continuous diversion.

twicky_kid · May 03, 2006, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Too bad I cannot link to other forums here (against posting rules). You should read some of the post on other PvP forums about this change.

I have not read 1 post that says its not worth using. In fact most of them agree that its too strong now.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 03, 2006, 04:01 AM // 04:01

All I'm saying is that I took the standard boon prot monk; energy drain inspired hex the works; and put it up against a diversion spam with mantra.

End result was they used veil; countered it twice with one spell; inspired hex countered it again with a 20 second recharge spell (even IF triggered by diversion as it triggers by removing a hex), and simply energy denial was able to beat it in the end.

The fight went on for 7 minutes; before I got a lucky powerspike on his reversal of fortune which won the battle. Although he claims that the most detrimental skills to the battle were the following.
-energy burn
-energy tap
-ether feast

Ironically he claimed the etherfeast did him in; due to the countless draining of 3 energy every couple of seconds...not what I would have expected. Mantra of recovery now shows some promise; but I would like to keep in mind that this was a 1-1 attempt; without backup damage support. However if you are using more than 1 person to effectivly counter their build...why arn't you using their build?

Either
A. no one has taken the inititive and done tests themselves-as they are too busy theorizing.
-or-
B. there is a test with results that I don't know of.

@Twicky
As I wish I could redirect you to the sota forums
And you are reading one now

twicky_kid · May 03, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

1-1 is not a test. That is only pressure from 1 mes. Of course energy denial is going to win over the shut down in that type of situation. Over time the e denial is going to wear his energy down so much. There is nothing forcing him to cast through the shutdown.

As for hex removal inspired hex on the monks. Remove hex on the mes/mo is the the current set up for hex removal. You are not going to encounter veil often. If you do its a 1 time trick. After that 1st time you know to strip the target before putting on the diversion or shame.

I'd consider that test completely unvalid. Use it in a real battle then come back to here. Take it into TA and see how fast your opponent last while you have their monk diversioned every 7 seconds (recharge + cast time).

I've also seen a player bring to my attention that you can chain aegis with 1 mes/mo.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 03, 2006, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I will bring back to attention that the point of a mesmer is to fully disable the opposition; doing a "half-ass" job is requiring another person do so
For each additional member on your team; they get one as well.
2x mesmer vs 2x monks...yea that will work out just peachy.

blackout can take out the monk-solo; without fail.

Can diversion do this? No
Will they get spells off if they cast through diversion? Yes
Will those spells heal? For at least 100+hp each.
Unless mesmer can find a way to powerblock rof; the boonprot lives on and this is nothing that they havn't seen already.

You still do not have an answer to inspired hex.

Why the hell use diversion when you can get the job done with 1 blackout?
With diversion spam; even if they cast through it; you are "giving" the monk 8 spells, or about 600 free hp, blackout...solid lockdown.
No spells
No skills
No chance.

Dragannia · May 03, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Why not bring BO [i]and[i/] Diversion? Diversion for constant pressure and effect, BO when it's necessary.